Women In Gaming

[Hexadecimal]

With the Women in Games International summit going on recently, I've seen a few articles speaking about the summit itself as well as the larger issue of women in the gaming industry. I thought I'd maybe ask for other's opinions on the subject.

This first one is from the summit itself, discussing Diversity in the industry with regards to females.

Originally Posted by Gamasutra

Lewis said in his experience, the classic bar against having women on a game development team is the male-majority that's already there when a female candidate comes to interview. “She meets the team, and the team votes,” he said, and the vote is often for very superficial reasons, often related to the lack of socialization team members have working with women. That's started to change in recent years, he said, in part because male developers have had experience working with women in school.

Wolfcale said she'd seen the effect of a woman's absence in development first-hand, when a game demo was shown to a female game reporter and herself. The reporter noted the lack of female character models, both for player avatars and other in-game characters, and asked where they were. As Wolfcale remembered, the team hadn't made any female characters yet. Often it's like that, she said – not that women were meant to be shut out, but just that no one on the male-dominated team thought to keep them in mind.

WIGI Report: Dona Bailey, BioWare, SOE Talk Diversity

This next article is focused on Heroines in the modern gaming industry and number of issues that have been raised on the portrayal of women in games themselves, taking aim at games like Soul Calibur IV among others for their lack of realism, as well as realism on other more personal scales.

Originally Posted by The Escapist

The Soul Calibur franchise has always been known for its graphics and art style, but not only were previous editions of the game more physically realistic, their more primitive graphics allowed for a level of abstraction that gave artists some stylistic wiggle room. Comic books are certainly as guilty of unrealistic physics as videogames, but comic books are descendants of tall tale and are about exaggeration. In games, particularly at the levels achievable by modern graphics, we are straddling the uncanny valley and are more beholden to emotion and physical law. Pornographic endowment is fine if you're laying on your back; for athleticism it is as unrealistic as big rigs that fly. And for some reason, revealing shots are deemed appropriate on women but not so much for men.

Holding Out For A Heroine

[Gikoku Harakami]

Originally Posted by The Escapist

Pornographic endowment is fine if you're laying on your back; for athleticism it is as unrealistic as big rigs that fly. And for some reason, revealing shots are deemed appropriate on women but not so much for men.

I'm guessing this person hasn't seen the releases of the latest Final Fantasy games, where the men's clothing are smaller than the women's.

Some people seem to have a hard time telling apart the differences of Sexism, from Perversions. Some of these games we see today, where the female is depicted with unrealistic sized body parts, and other things are mainly due to perversions and apparently what interests the art designer, it's not really Sexist though. What most find Taboo, is normal for others. A good example, is that some women seem to find it appropriate to claim that a man who is highly turned-on by two women making out, as Sexist & Perverted...where as, if two men were making out, then it's okay.

The world is filled with alot of perverted men & women, and seeing the work of a bunch of perverted men in the video game industry is wrong? Some people are just too sensitive, I bet if it was the other way around you'd be seeing the men complaining about it, instead of the women (but i personally couldn't care for either or). I don't mind any of the women rights stuff, but just some of these people try to make a point that ends up turning out to be half-right, or just silly.

There's not too many games out there where the woman is depicted in a highly perverted manner anyway. Hell, there's plenty of Male development teams out there that depict women as normally as they depict the men. The only game that comes to mind as Sexist, or highly perverted is the Leisure Suite Larry games, where the women are apparently depicted as ditsy, sex objects.

[Dark Drakan]

Some games just take it to far to appeal to the young boys and it actually takes things away from the game. Dead or Alive for example with one of its main spoken about features being the bouncing boobs option, a novelty thats unneeded and doesnt add anything but a weird voyeurism angle to the game. I think theres a line from where it goes from commonplace to just silly and unneeded and more and more games are starting to cross that boundary.

[Tsuyu]

Originally Posted by Dark Drakan

Some games just take it to far to appeal to the young boys and it actually takes things away from the game. Dead or Alive for example with one of its main spoken about features being the bouncing boobs option, a novelty thats unneeded and doesnt add anything but a weird voyeurism angle to the game. I think theres a line from where it goes from commonplace to just silly and unneeded and more and more games are starting to cross that boundary.

The young boys and The Tsuyu!

Sex sells. That's the way it has always been, and always will be. And since we guys dominate the market, this is the natural way for it to evolve to this.

Originally Posted by Gikoku

I'm guessing this person hasn't seen the releases of the latest Final Fantasy games, where the men's clothing are smaller than the women's.

Some people seem to have a hard time telling apart the differences of Sexism, from Perversions. Some of these games we see today, where the female is depicted with unrealistic sized body parts, and other things are mainly due to perversions and apparently what interests the art designer, it's not really Sexist though. What most find Taboo, is normal for others. A good example, is that some women seem to find it appropriate to claim that a man who is highly turned-on by two women making out, as Sexist & Perverted...where as, if two men were making out, then it's okay.

The world is filled with alot of perverted men & women, and seeing the work of a bunch of perverted men in the video game industry is wrong? Some people are just too sensitive, I bet if it was the other way around you'd be seeing the men complaining about it, instead of the women (but i personally couldn't care for either or). I don't mind any of the women rights stuff, but just some of these people try to make a point that ends up turning out to be half-right, or just silly.

There's not too many games out there where the woman is depicted in a highly perverted manner anyway. Hell, there's plenty of Male development teams out there that depict women as normally as they depict the men. The only game that comes to mind as Sexist, or highly perverted is the Leisure Suite Larry games, where the women are apparently depicted as ditsy, sex objects.

Very good points.

...

And you just made me scared of the new Final Fantasy games...

[Hexadecimal]

Originally Posted by Gikoku

I'm guessing this person hasn't seen the releases of the latest Final Fantasy games, where the men's clothing are smaller than the women's.

Some people seem to have a hard time telling apart the differences of Sexism, from Perversions. Some of these games we see today, where the female is depicted with unrealistic sized body parts, and other things are mainly due to perversions and apparently what interests the art designer, it's not really Sexist though. What most find Taboo, is normal for others. A good example, is that some women seem to find it appropriate to claim that a man who is highly turned-on by two women making out, as Sexist & Perverted...where as, if two men were making out, then it's okay.

The world is filled with alot of perverted men & women, and seeing the work of a bunch of perverted men in the video game industry is wrong? Some people are just too sensitive, I bet if it was the other way around you'd be seeing the men complaining about it, instead of the women (but i personally couldn't care for either or). I don't mind any of the women rights stuff, but just some of these people try to make a point that ends up turning out to be half-right, or just silly.

There's not too many games out there where the woman is depicted in a highly perverted manner anyway. Hell, there's plenty of Male development teams out there that depict women as normally as they depict the men. The only game that comes to mind as Sexist, or highly perverted is the Leisure Suite Larry games, where the women are apparently depicted as ditsy, sex objects.

I don't recall anyone saying any of it was "wrong"... the issue is that the Heroines portrayed are never seen as realistic portrayals of women...
when the image of women one presents is always a highly sexualized one I would say that is sexist as you presenting that gender as a mere charicature of what it is...
heroines in almost every game are scantily clad, available, and as one put it in the article, "men with boobs"... they are shown as women in terms of physicality, but then tend not to act like women but rather as men with boobs, since femininity tends to be dismissed as something trivial and not compatible with heroism...

[Tsuyu]

Originally Posted by Hexadecimal

I don't recall anyone saying any of it was "wrong"... the issue is that the Heroines portrayed are never seen as realistic portrayals of women...
when the image of women one presents is always a highly sexualized one I would say that is sexist as you presenting that gender as a mere charicature of what it is...
heroines in almost every game are scantily clad, available, and as one put it in the article, "men with boobs"... they are shown as women in terms of physicality, but then tend not to act like women but rather as men with boobs, since femininity tends to be dismissed as something trivial and not compatible with heroism...

Well, to be honest Hex - what real man looks like the Heroes in games often do? I mean, we do not all look like Ah-nould. While this perhaps is not intended to be sexual (what do I know after all? I am a straight male), but it shows that it works both ways.

A big breasted gal, or a big bulky butch will sell more games, it is just the way it works.

[Gikoku Harakami]

Originally Posted by Hexadecimal

I don't recall anyone saying any of it was "wrong"... the issue is that the Heroines portrayed are never seen as realistic portrayals of women...
when the image of women one presents is always a highly sexualized one I would say that is sexist as you presenting that gender as a mere charicature of what it is...
heroines in almost every game are scantily clad, available, and as one put it in the article, "men with boobs"... they are shown as women in terms of physicality, but then tend not to act like women but rather as men with boobs, since femininity tends to be dismissed as something trivial and not compatible with heroism...

It's not sexist, it's more so perverted, or just the way that art designer visualizes his/her own characters. And so what if they aren't portrayed realistically? It's their creations, their characters, their ideas, but some seem to find it necessary to take their own criticism towards things like that to action. And it's just silly, seriously..If i were to take a piece of paper & pencil, and draw a picture of a woman with big breasts, and large lips...That wouldn't be sexist in the least, if anything..it's just a form of style or visualization for my idea of my own character. It's not "Oh, since i'm going to make a female character, i better make sure to add some big boobs, and an assumed girly attitude, but to make her tough aswell".

These people seem to base their judgments on these female characters, because they themselves aren't at all like what is being portrayed. As if they speak for the respect of women everywhere, it's silly. Hell, there are women out there who look up to female characters like Lara Croft, Xena, Samus, and others. I myself respect women very much, but some people just take offense to something silly, and try to change it just for themselves.

Originally Posted by Tsuyu

Well, to be honest Hex - what real man looks like the Heroes in games often do? I mean, we do not all look like Ah-nould. While this perhaps is not intended to be sexual (what do I know after all? I am a straight male), but it shows that it works both ways.

A big breasted gal, or a big bulky butch will sell more games, it is just the way it works.

Exactly. I mean, really.. Who's going to be impressed with a game, where the main hero is an obese man, with mustard stains on his t-shirt, dirty glasses, sweaty palms, and fuzzy hair?..Not alot. (course, i myself wouldn't mind playing a game like that, might be pretty fun.....)

But yeah, Sex Sells...Even though, there are developers and creators out there, who choose to not use the method of selling sex in their creations.

[Angel]

I personally don't give a crap about how women look in games seeing as, oddly enough, they are entirely fictional and still manage to get the job done (Lara Croft, anyone?).

However, the article about women in the industry interested me just because I think it would be amazing to work in something like that but I am also fully aware of the constraints that I could possibly face as someone who has a young family. It is still expected that the female of the household takes the time off to care for a sick child, (and obviously we are the only ones who can do the whole giving birth thing), and if you are in any type of work where there are deadlines which, if missed, will cost ridiculous amounts of money, you have to realise that not every department will be able to cover for you sufficiently (as Lewis pointed out in the article). If you are at a crucial point in the development of a game, is it feasible to take the time off to have a baby or deal with the chicken pox, for example? Might sound harsh, but the interview process for teaching included, until fairly recently, the question "Is it likely you will be planning a family?" It is not unlikely that this question could still apply to certain other professions - especially if they are largely dominated by men.

Another fact which may or may not rile other females here is that once you've used up your maternity leave, you may find it almost impossible to want to return to work - maternal instincts (I don't have any, so I have no idea what they are like) are meant to be insanely strong and the urge to stay at home until your child is old enough to be put in an old people's home can be overpowering. Then there is the eternal guilt struggle many career mum's find and the inflexibility of employers - although laws are changing in that respect.

I see it like this - I need a job doing so I employ the best people I can find for that job, be they men or women. But I would definitely want to make sure that any women I employ aren't about to go gallivanting off to have babies and be constantly calling in to take time off because their little treasure has a cold. Yes, I am exaggerating slightly but you see what I mean. I would need people to do the job regardless of personal circumstances. Yes, women are more than capable of being part of the gaming industry and there is no reason why they can't be - but it could be that, like with many other professions before, they have to fight that bit harder until it is not such a big deal anymore.

/ramble

[Hexadecimal]

Originally Posted by Gikoku

It's not sexist, it's more so perverted, or just the way that art designer visualizes his/her own characters. And so what if they aren't portrayed realistically? It's their creations, their characters, their ideas, but some seem to find it necessary to take their own criticism towards things like that to action. And it's just silly, seriously..If i were to take a piece of paper & pencil, and draw a picture of a woman with big breasts, and large lips...That wouldn't be sexist in the least, if anything..it's just a form of style or visualization for my idea of my own character. It's not "Oh, since i'm going to make a female character, i better make sure to add some big boobs, and an assumed girly attitude, but to make her tough aswell".

These people seem to base their judgments on these female characters, because they themselves aren't at all like what it is being portrayed. As if they speak for the respect of women everywhere, it's silly. Hell, there are women out there who look up to female characters like Lara Croft, Xena, Samus, and others. I myself respect women very much, but some people just take offense to something silly, and try to change it just for themselves.

so if I have a problem with the way women are portrayed in video games and feel its sexist, it's cause I'm unattractive? riiiiight....

something can be both perverted and sexist... and for your own drawing that is different, for a few reasons... it is a drawing for you and not representative of an industry, a single work does not make an industry, or even the collected works of one artist... it is when you collect all of the whole that you begin to see it is not one person's ideas but the skew of an entire industry and it begins to be unrealistic and offensive... one person may say something unpleasant to you, and you not care, but if everyone around you begins to say it, you may begin to get irritated by them...
secondly, a drawing doesn't have actions, it can't act out the situations present in games that are what add to the sexist portrayal...
this isn't just about the fact that women are scantily clad... I don't have any problems with that at all really...
it's the fact that they are shown as women in physicality, but not in their personality
the women must be strong, stoic, and unemotional, while still showing off every inch of their female body...
they are men with boobs, portrayed as a stereotypical man with a female body...
in contrast, men can be short, homely, old, etc, and are free to show emotions without it being classed a character flaw like it seems it would be in a female lead..
the message seeming to be that a woman's body is beautiful, but her mind is not, her femininity is not, those are flawed, so we must take that which is good - her body, and superimpose it with that which is also good - the stereotypical male personality to "fix" her...
and I never said that was anyone's intent when they create their female characters... it could well be they just go with the industry standard without even thinking... but whether they mean to or not, it's there...

[Tsuyu]

I'm curious Hex, you say that female characters are 'men with boobs'. How would you say a 'female with boobs' should think, act and speak?

[Hexadecimal]

Originally Posted by Tsuyu

I'm curious Hex, you say that female characters are 'men with boobs'. How would you say a 'female with boobs' should think, act and speak?

I don't think there can be one set way... I guess the only set way would be all different, cause women are all different...
men are sometimes shown as stoic, sometimes noble, sometimes crooked, sometimes emotional, but women in games tend to be one certain way, stoic and hardasses... they tend to act a lot like myself, so I do identify with the women in games... but I also know that I am hardly representative of all women, I'm only one person and have been informed on many occasions that my femininity is rather suspect...
it would just be nice to see some variety in the portrayals rather than it seeming like "all women are all the same"...

[Gikoku Harakami]

Originally Posted by Hexadecimal

so if I have a problem with the way women are portrayed in video games and feel its sexist, it's cause I'm unattractive? riiiiight....

something can be both perverted and sexist... and for your own drawing that is different, for a few reasons... it is a drawing for you and not representative of an industry, a single work does not make an industry, or even the collected works of one artist... it is when you collect all of the whole that you begin to see it is not one person's ideas but the skew of an entire industry and it begins to be unrealistic and offensive... one person may say something unpleasant to you, and you not care, but if everyone around you begins to say it, you may begin to get irritated by them...
secondly, a drawing doesn't have actions, it can't act out the situations present in games that are what add to the sexist portrayal...
this isn't just about the fact that women are scantily clad... I don't have any problems with that at all really...
it's the fact that they are shown as women in physicality, but not in their personality
the women must be strong, stoic, and unemotional, while still showing off every inch of their female body...
they are men with boobs, portrayed as a stereotypical man with a female body...
in contrast, men can be short, homely, old, etc, and are free to show emotions without it being classed a character flaw like it seems it would be in a female lead..
the message seeming to be that a woman's body is beautiful, but her mind is not, her femininity is not, those are flawed, so we must take that which is good - her body, and superimpose it with that which is also good - the stereotypical male personality to "fix" her...
and I never said that was anyone's intent when they create their female characters... it could well be they just go with the industry standard without even thinking... but whether they mean to or not, it's there...

The only ones portraying them as "men with boobs" are you, and the ones who are apparently offended by it, (but it doesn't make it a fact that they are). And yet you also appear to have misunderstood my post aswell, Just because you find the women in video games as "sexist", doesn't make you unattractive, please don't take my words out of context . And a drawing of a female character, is no different than the design of a female character for a video game, personality and all. It is the way that artist visualizes his/her own character, in whatever way they choose, not because that since they are female they NEED to be this certain way. And for some bizarre reason, you appear to be basing the character traits of a few female characters, for all female characters in video games, which would be extremely inaccurate (if you are).

And of course, women in video games have been short, tall, ugly, beautiful, smart, old, homely, caring and everything else in a video game too...not just men. And yes, whether they mean to create the character that way or not , IT'S THERE, yet you and others choose to go ahead and assume and label it as sexist. Which is purely ignorant. A perfect example of a woman being shown fully in her own personality in a video game, is Yuna of Final Fantasy X, she's not shown as some tough chick, with a one-tracked mind, she's shown with feelings and everything, with her own high intelligence of everything around her...She's not shown as just some 'standard image of the industry'. And go figure, her character and everything of her was designed by a male who is fond of poo jokes.

[Tsuyu]

Originally Posted by Hexadecimal

I don't think there can be one set way... I guess the only set way would be all different, cause women are all different...
men are sometimes shown as stoic, sometimes noble, sometimes crooked, sometimes emotional, but women in games tend to be one certain way, stoic and hardasses... they tend to act a lot like myself, so I do identify with the women in games... but I also know that I am hardly representative of all women, I'm only one person and have been informed on many occasions that my femininity is rather suspect...
it would just be nice to see some variety in the portrayals rather than it seeming like "all women are all the same"...

Well to be honest, I've played countless games with some pretty awesome female characters who range in uniqueness as much as the male characters. These females you speak of only appear in 'extreme' cases such as Tomb Raider.

For every Tom Raider there is tons of other games where the females have just as much depth of character as the males.

[Dark Drakan]

Originally Posted by Gikoku

A perfect example of a woman being shown fully in her own personality in a video game, is Yuna of Final Fantasy X, she's not shown as some tough chick, with a one-tracked mind, she's shown with feelings and everything, with her own high intelligence of everything around her...She's not shown as just some 'standard image of the industry'.

Until Final Fantasy X-2 when she was turned into a gun wielding singer chick

[Gikoku Harakami]

Originally Posted by Dark Drakan

Until Final Fantasy X-2 when she was turned into a gun wielding singer chick

Hmmm, yeah...I really hated that, as it was pretty dumb and narrow-minded of Square..

Course, i honestly hate that game, except for it's battle system.