Women In Gaming

[Hexadecimal]

Originally Posted by Tsuyu

Well to be honest, I've played countless games with some pretty awesome female characters who range in uniqueness as much as the male characters. These females you speak of only appear in 'extreme' cases such as Tomb Raider.

For every Tom Raider there is tons of other games where the females have just as much depth of character as the males.

I have seen games where there are women who aren't like this caricature, but not as the main character or the "heroine" as they've put it... maybe I've just not seen those games or can't think of them right now...

at any rate, as I said this is not my view I'm presenting... I do not work for these websites nor do I represent WIGI... I was merely trying to present their views for discussion as they aren't here to do it themselves...
I don't personally have a problem with the women I see in games reminding me of myself as it helps me get into the game... I do think it's entirely sexist, and sexism at it's core is offensive, but that's about it... I'm not offended by a game
I do have a problem with people telling me I'm ignorant simply for trying to state the opinions of the article, but some must resort to personal attacks in arguments it seems...

Originally Posted by Angel

I personally don't give a crap about how women look in games seeing as, oddly enough, they are entirely fictional and still manage to get the job done (Lara Croft, anyone?).

However, the article about women in the industry interested me just because I think it would be amazing to work in something like that but I am also fully aware of the constraints that I could possibly face as someone who has a young family. It is still expected that the female of the household takes the time off to care for a sick child, (and obviously we are the only ones who can do the whole giving birth thing), and if you are in any type of work where there are deadlines which, if missed, will cost ridiculous amounts of money, you have to realise that not every department will be able to cover for you sufficiently (as Lewis pointed out in the article). If you are at a crucial point in the development of a game, is it feasible to take the time off to have a baby or deal with the chicken pox, for example? Might sound harsh, but the interview process for teaching included, until fairly recently, the question "Is it likely you will be planning a family?" It is not unlikely that this question could still apply to certain other professions - especially if they are largely dominated by men.

Another fact which may or may not rile other females here is that once you've used up your maternity leave, you may find it almost impossible to want to return to work - maternal instincts (I don't have any, so I have no idea what they are like) are meant to be insanely strong and the urge to stay at home until your child is old enough to be put in an old people's home can be overpowering. Then there is the eternal guilt struggle many career mum's find and the inflexibility of employers - although laws are changing in that respect.

I see it like this - I need a job doing so I employ the best people I can find for that job, be they men or women. But I would definitely want to make sure that any women I employ aren't about to go gallivanting off to have babies and be constantly calling in to take time off because their little treasure has a cold. Yes, I am exaggerating slightly but you see what I mean. I would need people to do the job regardless of personal circumstances. Yes, women are more than capable of being part of the gaming industry and there is no reason why they can't be - but it could be that, like with many other professions before, they have to fight that bit harder until it is not such a big deal anymore.

/ramble

yeah I enjoyed that side of the article as well, sorry I missed this post last time through, as it's pertinent not only to the gaming industry, but in a way to any industry...
I've even heard of women being asked so sign contracts stating that they have no intentions of having a child in the next 5-10 years and that if they do and break the contract their employment will be in jeopardy
but to be fair, they've begun to ask men for the same

[Gikoku Harakami]

Originally Posted by Hexadecimal

I have seen games where there are women who aren't like this caricature, but not as the main character or the "heroine" as they've put it... maybe I've just not seen those games or can't think of them right now...

at any rate, as I said this is not my view I'm presenting... I do not work for these websites nor do I represent WIGI... I was merely trying to present their views for discussion as they aren't here to do it themselves...
I don't personally have a problem with the women I see in games reminding me of myself as it helps me get into the game... I do think it's entirely sexist, and sexism at it's core is offensive, but that's about it... I'm not offended by a game
I do have a problem with people telling me I'm ignorant simply for trying to state the opinions of the article, but some must resort to personal attacks in arguments it seems...

Originally Posted by Hexidecimal

maybe I've just not seen those games

And that's where these people apparently messed up at, they take a small handful of games that portray the lead woman as such, but not doing their own extensive research of the countless of games that do not portray the lead role females like that, but choose to slap the sexist label on the entire industry.

And aside from that, I was not getting personal with it.. The term ignorant is of someone who apparently has ignored and is being absent minded of certain aspects of the situation. I wasn't claiming you to be ignorant as an insult for just stating the opinions of the article...course, in your posts, you were wording everything as if you were completely agreeing with them (even though you don't).

[Hexadecimal]

Originally Posted by Gikoku

I wasn't claiming you to be ignorant as an insult for just stating the opinions of the article...course, in your posts, you were wording everything as if you were completely agreeing with them (even though you don't).

that's because I enjoy taking the opposite side in these sorts of discussions... more often that not in an argument with a person I am not in actual disagreement with them but trying to show the other side of the issue to further the discussion... one sided discussions lead nowhere...

I agree with them that the games can be sexist, or at the very least that the industry can appear sexist to a lot of women... but the fact that it's sexist doesn't effect my caring... I prefer games where I can relate to the female lead...
I am neither unattractive, nor small breasted, nor a delicate flower of sensitive emotion... so no matter how much women may wish for games which portrayed those women, and as nice as it may be in theory, I would personally not enjoy those games...
and if they were to stop showing women I enjoyed playing as that I feel are more like myself in a gaming persona, then I would be the one crying sexism as they would be denying another aspect of women in presuming we all must be ultra feminized...
it's a thin line really, and I just enjoy presenting the other side of the discussion...

[Gikoku Harakami]

Originally Posted by Hexadecimal

that's because I enjoy taking the opposite side in these sorts of discussions... more often that not in an argument with a person I am not in actual disagreement with them but trying to show the other side of the issue to further the discussion... one sided discussions lead nowhere...

And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Just realize that I did not know that--that is what you enjoy doing in these discussions (before).

I appreciate you informing me of that also.

[Angel]

Originally Posted by Hexadecimal

yeah I enjoyed that side of the article as well, sorry I missed this post last time through, as it's pertinent not only to the gaming industry, but in a way to any industry...
I've even heard of women being asked so sign contracts stating that they have no intentions of having a child in the next 5-10 years and that if they do and break the contract their employment will be in jeopardy
but to be fair, they've begun to ask men for the same

It's weird in a way - on the one hand there is a part of me that bristles with indignation when I read about women having to put aside all intentions of having a family just because their career depends on it but then another part of me can see the sense in it. I mean, if you have to get something done on time and there will be enormous financial repercussions or something similar if you fail, then to have one or more of your essential team has to take time off for family stuff I can fully appreciate how much of a bind that puts you in.


I suppose you'd know this - would you say, with everything you know about people-y stuff (my vocabulary is not what it was five hours ago), that it is more of a social construction that we expect the women to deal with the sick kids etc rather than the men and treat both sexes accordingly? I've yet to come across an employer who lets the dad drop everything to be with his sick child (serious issues of course are a different matter)...they tend to ask if his wife can just take time out of her job instead. Presuming, I would guess, that the woman's job is not seen as important as the man's?

[Albion Knight]

I think that it is essential that there be more women in the gaming industry for it to become a more mainstream art.

As for Women Heroine it makes some sense that like other warriors they would be a bit stoic. It doesn't make sense that they would be dressed the way they are. Men in Full Plate and Woman in Metal bikinis while might be visually appealing doesn't make sense. The fact that we are wanting more depth of emotion from the characters is encouraging to me. Games will take on a more real sense and can go from being considered predominately games for adolescent boys to everyone

[Hexadecimal]

Originally Posted by Angel

It's weird in a way - on the one hand there is a part of me that bristles with indignation when I read about women having to put aside all intentions of having a family just because their career depends on it but then another part of me can see the sense in it. I mean, if you have to get something done on time and there will be enormous financial repercussions or something similar if you fail, then to have one or more of your essential team has to take time off for family stuff I can fully appreciate how much of a bind that puts you in.


I suppose you'd know this - would you say, with everything you know about people-y stuff (my vocabulary is not what it was five hours ago), that it is more of a social construction that we expect the women to deal with the sick kids etc rather than the men and treat both sexes accordingly? I've yet to come across an employer who lets the dad drop everything to be with his sick child (serious issues of course are a different matter)...they tend to ask if his wife can just take time out of her job instead. Presuming, I would guess, that the woman's job is not seen as important as the man's?

yeah, it's a social construct, and not based at all on biology.... there are cultures where the males are seen as the nurturing ones and it is their job to care for children and cook and clean etc... there is nothing about women that is inherently better able to handle a sick child...
however, employers don't really presume women will handle things here...I don't know how it is there... men are given as much time off to care for children as women... fathers even get Paternity Leave from work, he can take it at the same time as the mother, or in succession... it's also becoming rather common for men to be stay at home fathers here... so I guess it would depend on what the culture is like where you live...

[Dark Drakan]

Originally Posted by Hexadecimal

yeah, it's a social construct, and not based at all on biology.... there are cultures where the males are seen as the nurturing ones and it is their job to care for children and cook and clean etc... there is nothing about women that is inherently better able to handle a sick child...
however, employers don't really presume women will handle things here...I don't know how it is there... men are given as much time off to care for children as women... fathers even get Paternity Leave from work, he can take it at the same time as the mother, or in succession... it's also becoming rather common for men to be stay at home fathers here... so I guess it would depend on what the culture is like where you live...

As far as im aware the fathers here get paternity leave its just not as long as a woman is allowed. Though like you said the father could be the one to leave work and care for the child though it isnt that common it does happen but usually when the woman has a career or higher paid job and it would benefit them more if the man were to give up his. I dont know all the facts really im just going on what ive seen and heard from other people.

[Hexadecimal]

Originally Posted by Dark Drakan

As far as im aware the fathers here get paternity leave its just not as long as a woman is allowed. Though like you said the father could be the one to leave work and care for the child though it isnt that common it does happen but usually when the woman has a career or higher paid job and it would benefit them more if the man were to give up his. I dont know all the facts really im just going on what ive seen and heard from other people.

here it's a bit complicated, but parents get a lot of time off... Canada gives mothers 15 weeks extra, so they can take time off before the baby is born and not feel forced to work if they aren't up to it... and so long as a person is only working 40% of a workload, they will still receive their parental benefits... both parents then get 35 weeks each parental leave after the baby is born... and Ontario gives each parent and additional 17 weeks... so really if a couple wanted to they could be paid to sit one parent at a time home with the baby for just past the first 2 years... though usually it's one parent who will prefer to care for the child while the other returns to work

[Angel]

Wow - I wanna live there.

Things are slowly changing here but it is still largely accepted that women stay at home and the men get up to 2 weeks off (paid) before heading back to work - even if the woman earns more. If you haven't been working long enough before you get pregnant, your SMP (statutory maternity pay) doesn't exist, so you have to either rely on your husband/partner's wages or sign on to state benefits. So far, maternity leave covers a grand total of 52 weeks (this is very new as it used to be only 26 weeks in total) and you get 90% of your average weekly wages for the first 6 weeks and then £112.75 for the remaining 33 weeks of your SMP. After that, you're on your own.

You are entitled to take the full 52 weeks off no matter how long you have been employed for and there is no obligation to return to work for the same employer again afterwards, but SMP only applies for those who have been making enough National Insurance contributions to qualify.

Fathers get the same money as the mothers for the duration of their leave but for both parents, despite the fact they are taking a drop in income, they still have to pay the same amount of tax and national insurance. Plus, for fathers, it is still perfectly acceptable for an employer to refuse them that much time off - but if they do take the time off, they must still be allowed to return to work as normal once their leave is over.

[Tsuyu]

Ugh. Kids seems to be more trouble than they are worth, if you ask me.

[Hexadecimal]

Originally Posted by Angel

Wow - I wanna live there.

Things are slowly changing here but it is still largely accepted that women stay at home and the men get up to 2 weeks off (paid) before heading back to work - even if the woman earns more. If you haven't been working long enough before you get pregnant, your SMP (statutory maternity pay) doesn't exist, so you have to either rely on your husband/partner's wages or sign on to state benefits. So far, maternity leave covers a grand total of 52 weeks (this is very new as it used to be only 26 weeks in total) and you get 90% of your average weekly wages for the first 6 weeks and then £112.75 for the remaining 33 weeks of your SMP. After that, you're on your own.

You are entitled to take the full 52 weeks off no matter how long you have been employed for and there is no obligation to return to work for the same employer again afterwards, but SMP only applies for those who have been making enough National Insurance contributions to qualify.

Fathers get the same money as the mothers for the duration of their leave but for both parents, despite the fact they are taking a drop in income, they still have to pay the same amount of tax and national insurance. Plus, for fathers, it is still perfectly acceptable for an employer to refuse them that much time off - but if they do take the time off, they must still be allowed to return to work as normal once their leave is over.

your way sounds like a complicated hassle
it could be due to lower birthrates here than there, I don't know what it is there, but we only have about 10 births for every 1000 people here... we don't have many children of our own, we just attract lots of delicious immigrants, so we can afford to support the few parents we have while they stay home...
we also have government subsidized daycare, so that once the parental leave runs out, if both parents would rather be working they can go to government daycare, where they'll eat all the food groups and learn to tell time and their colours and such so they're set for school when that starts at age 4...
I certainly hope school is free in the U.K.
but anyhoo... the point being we try to make it very easy for a woman or a man both to have a child here...
and of course with universal health care, she doesn't pay a penny for her pre natal care, or any care ever... nobody does

[Angel]

Dammit - I've said it a million times but our country sucks...

Obviously, women are exempt from healthcare payments of any kind (unless she goes private) for the duration of their pregnancy but whilst immigration seems to boost your economy, it is crippling ours incredibly. School is free but varied - so you have to fight for your child to get into a decent educational establishment. People will move house just to get their kid into "that" school...it's crazy...

The birth rate here is still fairly low - but it is being blamed on a higher rate of failed relationships, lack of employer flexibility and many women waiting until they are nearly 30 before they even consider children, not realising that as you pass that threshold, it can become more difficult to conceive. I don't know if birth rate would have anything to do with the level of care available for parents - some countries have been doing everything they can in recent years to encourage women to have babies in order to fill the generational gap caused by lots of elderly people and very few young people. But if the country you live in offers very little in the way of financial support, it is bound to put you off.

If your employer doesn't have in-house daycare, or pay you enough to be able to cover the necessary childcare the Government are supposed to subsidise your income in order for you to be able to go back to work and know your child is adequately cared for. The truth of the matter is, the Government expect you to choose the least expensive childcare option when in reality, you'd want you child to have the best care and funnily enough, the best care doesn't come cheap...the so-called family benefits mean ultimately, you end up with less money than if you stayed at home and signed on for welfare.

Then there is the issue of, having been a career woman, staying at home but realising just how much it dulls your mind to not interact with other adults on a more intelligent level. It's not that you don't want to be with your child, but it's not the same as being at the forefront of some major project at work, or heading up your own team for example. You don't just lose the paycheck - you lose your identity.

[Hexadecimal]

Originally Posted by Angel

Dammit - I've said it a million times but our country sucks...

Obviously, women are exempt from healthcare payments of any kind (unless she goes private) for the duration of their pregnancy but whilst immigration seems to boost your economy, it is crippling ours incredibly. School is free but varied - so you have to fight for your child to get into a decent educational establishment. People will move house just to get their kid into "that" school...it's crazy...

Then there is the issue of, having been a career woman, staying at home but realising just how much it dulls your mind to not interact with other adults on a more intelligent level. It's not that you don't want to be with your child, but it's not the same as being at the forefront of some major project at work, or heading up your own team for example. You don't just lose the paycheck - you lose your identity.

healthcare... payments...?
yeah... we don't have those...

and our schools are all the same... the only program you need to be accepted into is the Enhanced Program, and you're selected based on being in the top 2 percentile of your peer group... so you don't have to fight for it... you're either designated as gifted or you're not... but you don't go to separate schools, you just have separate classes...

and that is why I could never ever ever ever stay home with a child... I couldn't take it and if it was a choice between me staying home and being a full time mommy or never having children, I'd rather never have the children
which is why they have paternal leave now

[Angel]

Healthcare payments = prescription charges and certain vaccinations

Yeah, had it been up to me (not that I'd be without Jessica now) I'd never have had a child because I never wanted one...but I've gotten fairly used to the whole parenting rubbish now and because I had her at 18, I'm not trapped in that circle of hell reserved for those mums who seem to have delivered their brain with the placenta - I'm still young enough to get back on my feet and carry on...

That's another issue parents don't realise about going back to work after having a baby - your brain is temporarily scrambled and you do struggle to maintain any kind of line of concentration and your thoughts tend to be wound up with "is the baby ok?" and "why have I packed three nappies and not my annual report?"